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Old 07-12-2018, 08:57 AM   #71
carolina_yankee
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Originally Posted by K&P View Post
The explanation for using the ‘12 parsecs’ as a boast of how fast the Falcon is relates to the Kessel run involving skirting by a black hole. The faster your ship is, the closer you can fly to the black hole without being sucked in. The closer you can fly to the black hole, the shorter the distance your ship (in this case the Falcon) can complete the Kessel run.

I don’t know if Lucas originally intended this explanation or if it was a clever cover up after the fact.
I think it's the latter, kinda like Disney coming up with the backstory for Chester & Hester in Dinoland to justifying putting in a neighborhood church carnival instead of a full-blown land.

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Old 07-12-2018, 09:02 AM   #72
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I'd agree that's a bit exaggerated. Social media is ripe for some of this but it's been going on with movie roles for some time. A year or two ago I heard Bruce Dern griping about how he was hated on and career went down the tubes after he played a bad guy that killed John Wayne's character in The Cowboys. John Wayne told him it would happen while they were filming. And - now he's embracing that for a decline in his career. And there's other stories along the way of this happening.

Boyega? What correlation for that since Force Awakens is reported as doing over $2 billion? The purported boycotters would have brought it up to what? 2.00000001 billion?

George Lucas? Well, don't know if that had a lot to do with Star Wars or just a general direction. He did pretty well from that "not fun" thing to do.

Whining fans? See that $2 billion for a single movie?

I feel for the actors that do take negativity because of poor story or directing but that's on the writers and directors, not the actors. Jake Lloyd? Poor kid. Too young to have any sort of idea where things could/would go. And who stepped in to protect?



I saw Ahmed Best on a panel at Star Wars weekend a few years ago. According to Best George Lucas wasn't thinking of Jar Jar in that manner at all until Ahmed decided to come in and play the audition role that way. So, for that one, it might be on him as well as Lucas. At least that's what he was owning for his own part in it then.
Obviously haters are gonna hate and there is always something to hate, but there were public efforts to trash Star Wars for the casting of non-white, non-male leads in TFA. Effective? About as effective as the SBC's boycott of Disney.

Sadly, though, comments about the cast diversity of TFA are still made in fandom to cast the film in a negative light. It's subtle, but it's there.

I think the graphic illustrates that making a Star Wars film is approaching Third Rail status. Touch it, and some part of fandom will rise up against you.

I'm not invested, so I don't really care one way or another as long as I enjoy a film I paid money to see.

Culturally, I am curious at what point an intellectual property ceases to belong to its creator and starts to belong to its fans. It's an age-old question. How often do authors and directors insist that an interpretation of their work is not what they were trying to say, yet it becomes accepted that that is the message? I suspect fans see Star Wars one way, and its creators and current IP owners see it differently. I think the distinction becomes shabby when creators encouraged a whole industry to rise up around their creation and then effectively dismiss it by kicking it out of the canon.

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Old 07-12-2018, 10:28 AM   #73
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It was a general stement, not an absolute one. I was excited for Han's backstory too. Instead, we got Solo.

Not the other movies as much, but in decades worth of books.

Kathleen Kennedy came in and purposefully purged nearly all content that existed before her, as if it wasn't ever created. There is very little continuity between what happened for the 35 years before Kennedy took over, and what has been made since.
Still wondering why with all the thousands of movie-world people who love SW and would have been honored to be part of the legacy, they chose Kennedy, who (imo) was just in the right place at the right time, not a fan? Supposedly, now the PTB would love to remove her, but no one with any level of prestige as a producer wants the job. If they would succeed, it would be a shoulder-shrug, "well, it's SW, of course, it did well," and, if Kennedy has already damaged the brand beyond repair, no one would remember she started the downhill drive, just the last guy, who gets the blame. No possible win for anyone with a good track-record.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:57 PM   #74
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Still wondering why with all the thousands of movie-world people who love SW and would have been honored to be part of the legacy, they chose Kennedy, who (imo) was just in the right place at the right time, not a fan? Supposedly, now the PTB would love to remove her, but no one with any level of prestige as a producer wants the job. If they would succeed, it would be a shoulder-shrug, "well, it's SW, of course, it did well," and, if Kennedy has already damaged the brand beyond repair, no one would remember she started the downhill drive, just the last guy, who gets the blame. No possible win for anyone with a good track-record.
Two movies that are in the top 11 of Highest.Grossing.Movies.Ever. doesn't seem like she's damaged the brand beyond repair.

Solo crashed and burned. So did Chicken Little. And Disney's doing fine.

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Old 07-12-2018, 04:31 PM   #75
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Two movies that are in the top 11 of Highest.Grossing.Movies.Ever. doesn't seem like she's damaged the brand beyond repair.

Solo crashed and burned. So did Chicken Little. And Disney's doing fine.

Dirk
And John Carter which was a very expensive movie to make. I actually enjoyed it though so what do I know. It think that got the Disney studios head fired? Or contributed to that decision anyway if I'm recalling timing correctly.

But, Solo might be an indicator that Kennedy's actions have been damaging. The first movie - people were so excited to have one again. Yes, there were a lot that just plain loved it. Others gave it a pass for certain things because it was described as "rebooting" the series. It was enjoyable and hinted at some interesting things to come. Then Jedi killed most of those interesting things - I think that was a tipping point for many and has led to the poorer results for Solo.

But then again, I'm sure most everything will be given a pass because who can't see the close out of the trilogy. After that we'll see what's happened. Sometimes success doesn't mean it's being done successfully now. It might just mean was virtually impossible to screw up until it gets really screwed up.

To me, all the switches and changes of directing can't really be great indicators that things are going well within the studio either. But, just my arm chair view.
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:09 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by carolina_yankee View Post
Culturally, I am curious at what point an intellectual property ceases to belong to its creator and starts to belong to its fans. It's an age-old question. How often do authors and directors insist that an interpretation of their work is not what they were trying to say, yet it becomes accepted that that is the message? I suspect fans see Star Wars one way, and its creators and current IP owners see it differently. I think the distinction becomes shabby when creators encouraged a whole industry to rise up around their creation and then effectively dismiss it by kicking it out of the canon.

Dirk
In terms of Star Wars, this is the exact issue. But it wasn't the creator that forced everything out of canon, it was the steward. That's why you're seeing so much backlash. Lucas did this a small amount with the prequels when he introduced medichlorians and turned Darth vader into a love sick whiner. But it's his creation. Kennedy took things to an entirely different level with content that wasn't hers.


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Still wondering why with all the thousands of movie-world people who love SW and would have been honored to be part of the legacy, they chose Kennedy, who (imo) was just in the right place at the right time, not a fan? Supposedly, now the PTB would love to remove her, but no one with any level of prestige as a producer wants the job. If they would succeed, it would be a shoulder-shrug, "well, it's SW, of course, it did well," and, if Kennedy has already damaged the brand beyond repair, no one would remember she started the downhill drive, just the last guy, who gets the blame. No possible win for anyone with a good track-record.
I don't know. She had about as good of a track record and reputation of anyone ever. But all reports are that now that she's been given complete control, she is absolutely impossible to work with. She's fired every director of the SW movies under her control, with the exception of Rian Johnson. Every movie has had reshoots and outside consultants brought in to try and rescue them. Johnson is apparently the only one that does things she wants without question, and it's not a surprise that he was given the next trilogy. I very highly doubt, however, he will be the director for even 2 of them.

It's painfully clear that Kennedy has an extremely over-inflated image of herself and her talents, and a very weak grasp of reality. She views herself as a risk-taker exercising her creative license, never playing it safe. But the reality is that aside from Rogue One, these movies are all the same as have been done before with only forced, derivative changes. Rogue One had massive reshoots because she felt the tone wasn't Star Wars-like enough. Solo had 3 (really 4) directors because the production style wasn't what had been done before. That doesn't sound like risk taking to me.

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Originally Posted by carolina_yankee View Post
Two movies that are in the top 11 of Highest.Grossing.Movies.Ever. doesn't seem like she's damaged the brand beyond repair.

Solo crashed and burned. So did Chicken Little. And Disney's doing fine.

Dirk
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And John Carter which was a very expensive movie to make. I actually enjoyed it though so what do I know. It think that got the Disney studios head fired? Or contributed to that decision anyway if I'm recalling timing correctly.

But, Solo might be an indicator that Kennedy's actions have been damaging. The first movie - people were so excited to have one again. Yes, there were a lot that just plain loved it. Others gave it a pass for certain things because it was described as "rebooting" the series. It was enjoyable and hinted at some interesting things to come. Then Jedi killed most of those interesting things - I think that was a tipping point for many and has led to the poorer results for Solo.

But then again, I'm sure most everything will be given a pass because who can't see the close out of the trilogy. After that we'll see what's happened. Sometimes success doesn't mean it's being done successfully now. It might just mean was virtually impossible to screw up until it gets really screwed up.

To me, all the switches and changes of directing can't really be great indicators that things are going well within the studio either. But, just my arm chair view.
It will be interesting to see what happens after Episode IX is released. Sure Episodes VII and VIII did well financially, but TLJ was not as well received despite its earnings. Solo bombed. It appears that as Kennedy expands her influence, the movies and their reception suffer. This is likely because the content strays further and further from what was known before, relying more heavily on Kennedy's creativity. So what will the critical and financial response to the movies be after the Skywalker Saga ends - when all of the content for those movies and all others will come solely from what she created?
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:37 PM   #77
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Two movies that are in the top 11 of Highest.Grossing.Movies.Ever. doesn't seem like she's damaged the brand beyond repair.
It's tough to assess what damage may or may not have been done, as to try is to compare a hypothetical--what "would have happened" had the damaging things NOT been done.

Whether it's just a very vocal minority or something more substantial, I think a great deal of trust and goodwill have been lost with hardcore fans over the course of TFA, TLJ and Solo. I know that when I went to see TLJ with my extended family, those who were into SW were disappointed with the story choices, and those who didn't give a whit about SW said the movie wasn't very good. That's just one data point in millions, but I have heard the same thoughts expressed quite a few places.

TFA bored me to tears because it was the exact same story as E4...I knew how how the whole movie was going to end as soon as they revealed there was a Planet Killer (Death Star Redux). BUT I was willing to give it a pass because I wanted to see where they were going to take the new characters. The actors were likeable, so the combination of the excitement reboot (for the old crowd) and the introduction to the SW universe (for the young crowd) combined for a blockbuster.

TLJ was a vast disappointment because they didn't take them anywhere. Long, tedious movie with no payoff following a predictable copycat movie doesn't bode well for E9.

Disney gonna be Disney, so anything they make is going to eventually make money (on DVD, international, etc.). But I think that a well-done trilogy would have occupied the top-3 on the all-time list without breaking a sweat. As it stands, I think E9 will continue the downward trend.

But it's still a boatload of cash.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:16 PM   #78
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Disney gonna be Disney, so anything they make is going to eventually make money (on DVD, international, etc.). But I think that a well-done trilogy would have occupied the top-3 on the all-time list without breaking a sweat. As it stands, I think E9 will continue the downward trend.

But it's still a boatload of cash.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:12 PM   #79
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In terms of Star Wars, this is the exact issue. But it wasn't the creator that forced everything out of canon, it was the steward. That's why you're seeing so much backlash. Lucas did this a small amount with the prequels when he introduced medichlorians and turned Darth vader into a love sick whiner. But it's his creation. Kennedy took things to an entirely different level with content that wasn't hers.


I don't know. She had about as good of a track record and reputation of anyone ever. But all reports are that now that she's been given complete control, she is absolutely impossible to work with. She's fired every director of the SW movies under her control, with the exception of Rian Johnson. Every movie has had reshoots and outside consultants brought in to try and rescue them. Johnson is apparently the only one that does things she wants without question, and it's not a surprise that he was given the next trilogy. I very highly doubt, however, he will be the director for even 2 of them.

It's painfully clear that Kennedy has an extremely over-inflated image of herself and her talents, and a very weak grasp of reality. She views herself as a risk-taker exercising her creative license, never playing it safe. But the reality is that aside from Rogue One, these movies are all the same as have been done before with only forced, derivative changes. Rogue One had massive reshoots because she felt the tone wasn't Star Wars-like enough. Solo had 3 (really 4) directors because the production style wasn't what had been done before. That doesn't sound like risk taking to me.



It will be interesting to see what happens after Episode IX is released. Sure Episodes VII and VIII did well financially, but TLJ was not as well received despite its earnings. Solo bombed. It appears that as Kennedy expands her influence, the movies and their reception suffer. This is likely because the content strays further and further from what was known before, relying more heavily on Kennedy's creativity. So what will the critical and financial response to the movies be after the Skywalker Saga ends - when all of the content for those movies and all others will come solely from what she created?

Absolutely agree. Kennedy (Disney) and her/their forced social justice garbage has destroyed my families and especially my boys (13 and 10) love of Star Wars. I never imagined anything could do that.


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It's tough to assess what damage may or may not have been done, as to try is to compare a hypothetical--what "would have happened" had the damaging things NOT been done.

Whether it's just a very vocal minority or something more substantial, I think a great deal of trust and goodwill have been lost with hardcore fans over the course of TFA, TLJ and Solo. I know that when I went to see TLJ with my extended family, those who were into SW were disappointed with the story choices, and those who didn't give a whit about SW said the movie wasn't very good. That's just one data point in millions, but I have heard the same thoughts expressed quite a few places.

TFA bored me to tears because it was the exact same story as E4...I knew how how the whole movie was going to end as soon as they revealed there was a Planet Killer (Death Star Redux). BUT I was willing to give it a pass because I wanted to see where they were going to take the new characters. The actors were likeable, so the combination of the excitement reboot (for the old crowd) and the introduction to the SW universe (for the young crowd) combined for a blockbuster.

TLJ was a vast disappointment because they didn't take them anywhere. Long, tedious movie with no payoff following a predictable copycat movie doesn't bode well for E9.

Disney gonna be Disney, so anything they make is going to eventually make money (on DVD, international, etc.). But I think that a well-done trilogy would have occupied the top-3 on the all-time list without breaking a sweat. As it stands, I think E9 will continue the downward trend.

But it's still a boatload of cash.

I was willing to let TFA go for the exact same reasons you mentioned. TLJ was a flaming pile of donkey donuts.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:20 AM   #80
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And John Carter which was a very expensive movie to make. I actually enjoyed it though so what do I know. It think that got the Disney studios head fired? Or contributed to that decision anyway if I'm recalling timing correctly.

But, Solo might be an indicator that Kennedy's actions have been damaging. The first movie - people were so excited to have one again. Yes, there were a lot that just plain loved it. Others gave it a pass for certain things because it was described as "rebooting" the series. It was enjoyable and hinted at some interesting things to come. Then Jedi killed most of those interesting things - I think that was a tipping point for many and has led to the poorer results for Solo.

But then again, I'm sure most everything will be given a pass because who can't see the close out of the trilogy. After that we'll see what's happened. Sometimes success doesn't mean it's being done successfully now. It might just mean was virtually impossible to screw up until it gets really screwed up.

To me, all the switches and changes of directing can't really be great indicators that things are going well within the studio either. But, just my arm chair view.
Wow. John Carter flopped so bad that when I was looking for a Disney flop, it didn't even cross my mind!!

Since I haven't read the books or seen the TV shows, I have no clue what else is out there to be mined in the Star Wars universe. It's also why I don't care about Bobo or any of the Fetts. They didn't figure into the middle-three movies in any interesting way, so I have no interest in them and wouldn't be pulled into to see a movie about them. Well, maybe if the casting were right.

Star Trek seems to have no trouble mining tons of ideas, enduring criticism, and still being popular. I'm not sure Star Wars can pull that off. There was something about the middle-three movies that had chemistry and was captivating. If anything, the first three movies spoiled that for me - no chemistry in the cast, and poorly told stories. TFA had some chemistry, but still wasn't charming in the was Ep IV was. It was definitely darker, and I was OK with that - but the requires excellent story telling and directing to sustain.

I would rate TFA as a worthy start to the next trilogy because I only know the movies and eagerly awaited what's next, though I do wonder how many times they can mine the "that's no moon, that's no planet, that IS A planet" schtick. Seriously. Can't the bad guys think of a different way to destroy the universe? What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing and expecting different results?

Dirk
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